can you get a phd after residency

Pros and Cons of the MD-PhD Degree

• By Lawrence Wang
• August 17, 2018
• Medical Student , Pre-med
• Clinical Rotations , Dual Degree , Research , Residency

“Two roads diverged in a wood, and I— I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference.”                                  -Robert Frost

Do you have an interest/background in medicine and research , but balk at the prospect of spending eight years getting the MD-PhD degree? You can theoretically do all the same things (i.e. see patients and run a research lab) with only an MD degree. There are plenty of MD’s out there who are successful physician-scientists, and the MD-PhD  is certainly the less common path, the road less traveled. So why bother getting a PhD as well?

These are all great questions, worth a fair amount of thought and reflection. Pursuing the rewarding, competitive, and singular pathway of a combined MD-PhD degree is a major decision that warrants a critical evaluation of its associated pros and cons.  So without further ado, let’s dive right in.

Pros of the MD-PhD Degree

1 | fully funded.

Medical school is expensive, with the average medical student graduating in 2017 with a debt of nearly $200,000 . In contrast, many MD-PhD students graduate debt-free and may even have a small nest egg saved away. This is because Medical Scientist Training Programs (MSTP) and many non-MSTP MD-PhD programs waive tuition and provide stipends to their students that are comparable to a biology graduate student stipend (~$30,000 of disposable income a year). The stipend is adjusted to match the cost of living in the city in which your school is located.

2 | Options for Fast-Tracking

MD-PhD’s enjoy specialized tracks that enable them to shorten their PhD and residency training. The PhD portion of the dual degree is an average of 4 years (vs. an average of 5-6 years for single degree PhD’s in the biomedical sciences).

Furthermore, MD-PhD graduates can “short-track” their residency into fellowship training. In the case of the three-year internal medicine residency, the American Board of Internal Medicine (ABIM) has a pathway that enables residents with a demonstrated potential for basic science or clinical research to spend only two years doing clinical training before returning to full-time research . These so-called “research residencies” are typically populated by MD-PhD’s, with a few MD-MPH/MD-MS/MD graduates that have strong research credentials thrown into the mix.

3 | Competitiveness for Funding to Start a Lab

According to an NIH report about physician-scientists , MD-PhD’s overall had higher award rates for research program grants (RPGs) (24.6%) than MD’s (21.7%, p<0.01) or PhD’s (21.4%, p<0.01). Furthermore, the award rate for MD-PhD’s from an MSTP program was nearly three times higher than that for MD/PhD’s not from an MSTP program (36.2% vs. 12.3%). If you are interested in more details, there is a wealth of outcomes data in this report as well as the  AAMC National MD-PhD Program Outcomes Study .

Cons of the MD-PhD Degree

1 | delayed autonomy.

The additional four years that an MD-PhD student invests in obtaining a PhD represent a significant opportunity cost (time and money). The ramifications of this can be broad. For example, an MD-PhD student living on a graduate student stipend may not have the financial autonomy to start a family until after they obtain an income (and free time!) commensurate to their training level. Furthermore, the average age of young investigators obtaining their first RPG’s continues to rise (44.3 years for MD-PhD’s, 43.8 years for MD’s, and 41.9 years for PhD’s in 2014) . The path of an academic researcher, especially an MD-PhD, creates an extreme delay in full professional autonomy.

2 | Disjointed Training

MD-PhDs are often likened to chimeras in their duality, which is exemplified by the disjointed path to obtaining the MD-PhD degree.

Students typically complete the first two pre-clinical years of medical school, transition to a 4-year PhD program, and then return to medical school to finish the last two clinical years before graduating with their dual degree. Subsequently, most pursue residency and fellowship training in their chosen medical specialties before finally becoming principal investigators (PIs) of a lab. This disjointed pathway forces many MD-PhD’s to play catch-up when they inevitably fall behind in either medicine or research. For instance, a common issue for MD-PhD’s is that their research skills become outdated when they return to clinical training for a number of years during the latter half of medical school and residency.

3| Balancing Clinical and Research Commitments

Juggling the considerable responsibilities of caring for patients and managing research projects can be challenging. Physician-scientists working at academic medical centers may be incentivized (or even pressured) to spend more time seeing patients, a task that earns more revenue for both the physician-scientist and the medical center. It also requires significant time and money for physician-scientists to maintain their clinical skills and board certifications. Consequently, many MD-PhD’s eventually dedicate themselves to either medicine or research and unfortunately let their less-used skill set fade into irrelevance.

Final Remarks

Any aspiring student considering a dual MD-PhD degree should think deeply and critically about whether this demanding career path is right for them. There are pros and cons to getting the MD-PhD degree, some of which may be deal-makers or deal-breakers. Ultimately, I see MD-PhD’s as chimeras walking a road less traveled, obtaining unique toolkits to address gaps in the existing body of medical knowledge and therapies. If this aligns with your goals, it can be an outstanding career!

If you are considering an MD-PhD degree but are unsure, please consider the Med School Insiders  general advising services . We have advisers who have completed this degree and can give you  detailed, real-world advice and feedback!

Lawrence Wang

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Is an MD/PhD program right for me? Advice on becoming a physician–scientist

We are living in a golden age of biomedical research in which it is increasingly feasible to translate fundamental discoveries into new diagnostic and therapeutic approaches to human illnesses. Inherited diseases are being cured with gene therapy. Cancer cells are being eliminated with less toxic small molecule inhibitors and reengineered T-cells. Direct connections are being made between the central nervous system and prosthetic devices. These efforts are being led by scientists and engineers, some of whom are also physicians. This article is intended to help anyone considering a career as a physician–scientist, but unsure about how best to begin. It is also intended for faculty, staff, and parents who are on the front lines of advising talented students about the options that they have for their future. With this in mind, I have tried to answer common questions about MD/PhD programs, but I have also included information about other paths to becoming a physician who does research.

INTRODUCTION

Because this is a perspectives piece, I will begin it with a confession: I have been a physician–scientist for more than 30 years and I like what I do. I am also a graduate of one of the earliest MD/PhD programs and have been director of the University of Pennsylvania’s MD/PhD program for 20 years. Being a physician who is also a scientist already makes me atypical. According to the American Medical Association, only 14,000 U.S. physicians (out of nearly 1 million) consider research to be their major job, and a search of National Institutes of Health (NIH) databases in 2012 turned up only 8200 physicians who were principal investigators on NIH research grants ( Ginsburg et al. , 2014 ). To put that number in context, there were 28,000 total investigators with NIH grants in 2012. In other words, most NIH principal investigators are PhD scientists, not physician–scientists (MD or MD/PhD).

My primary day (and sometimes night and weekend) job as a card-carrying physician–scientist is overseeing an NIH-funded research team. My clinical responsibilities include taking care of patients with the kinds of bleeding and blood clotting disorders that we study in the lab. Some of these patients have medical problems that are common in the United States. Some of them are true “zebras,” the kinds of patients who get referred to a well-respected academic medical center because physicians are unsure how best to proceed or lack the resources to manage the patient’s problem. I also teach medical students and graduate students, and I direct a very large MD/PhD program. In my spare time, I talk to lots of undergraduates and recent college graduates who are thinking about becoming physician–scientists and wondering whether they should be applying to MD/PhD programs. I meet them at Penn, but also on visits to other colleges and universities. This article is a distillation of some answers to questions that I am commonly asked. If you are an undergraduate trying to decide whether to go to medical school, graduate school, or both, this article may help you. Whatever you decide, I wish you success.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF MD/PhD TRAINING?

MD/PhD programs were established in the 1950s to combine training in medicine and research. They were specifically designed for men and women who wanted to become research physicians, also known as physician–investigators or physician–scientists. Most of the graduates of MD/PhD programs in the 60-plus years since then have become faculty members at medical schools and universities, investigators at research institutes such as the NIH, or leaders in in the pharmaceutical and biotech industries ( Brass et al. , 2010 ). Regardless of where they eventually end up, MD/PhD trainees are being prepared for careers in which they will spend most of their time doing research or translating that research into new therapeutic and diagnostic approaches. It is a busy, challenging, and hugely rewarding career. A study of what has happened to MD/PhD program graduates from 24 schools appeared in Academic Medicine in 2010 and is worth reading not only for the data set, but also for the discussion of what the data mean ( Brass et al. , 2010 ). An even larger outcomes study that includes data on over 10,000 MD/PhD program graduates is scheduled for publication as a AAMC report in April 2018 ( Akabas et al. , 2018 ).

HOW CAN ONE PERSON DO TWO JOBS?

When I was an undergraduate and trying to decide what to do with my life, my mentors told me that I could become a doctor or a scientist, but that trying to combine two busy professions was futile. Many years later, I know that many current undergraduates are being told the same thing. However well-meant, that advice misses the point. The goal of MD/PhD program training is not to prepare you for two unrelated full time jobs. Instead, you should think of physician–scientists as chimeras—blends of a physician and a scientist with the two parts fitting closely together. A more relevant question is: if you are going to become a physician–scientist, do you have to go through an MD/PhD program? I will try to answer that one a bit later in this article. First, I’ll provide some definitions.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN MD/PhD PROGRAM, A COMBINED DEGREE PROGRAM, AND AN MSTP PROGRAM? A BIT OF HISTORY AND A WORD ABOUT FUNDING

None. Programs designed to train physician–scientists go by all of these names. For the most part, the terms are interchangeable, although at some schools “combined degree” programs can include MD/JD and MD/masters programs as well—also VMD/PhD programs, which train veterinary physician–scientists. A list of MD/PhD programs can be found at http://www.aamc.org/students/research/mdphd/applying_MD/PhD/61570/mdphd_programs.html . The NIH uses the term MSTP (short for “medical scientist training program”) to refer to programs at schools that have been competitively awarded special training funds to help support MD/PhD candidates. There are currently 46 MD/PhD programs that receive support from the National Institute of General Medical Studies. A list can be found at http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/InstPredoc/PredocOverview-MSTP.htm .

When they first started, there were only a handful of MD/PhD programs. I can clearly remember reading a small booklet about applying to medical school that had a single page at the back about MD/PhD programs. Over time, the number of programs has grown. Now there are ∼90 active MD/PhD programs that admit anywhere from a few students per year to 25 or more. The average size of an MD/PhD program in 2017 was ∼90 students in all stages of training. Compared with the many thousands who apply to medical school in each year, only 1900 (∼3%) apply to MD/PhD programs. About one-third of the applicants are accepted, which is similar to the acceptance rate for medical school. 1 When I began medical school, there were very few MD/PhD trainees—I was one of two in my entering class. That has changed considerably. There are currently ∼5500 men and women in training in MD/PhD programs.

Most MD/PhD programs provide tuition waivers for both medical school and graduate school plus a stipend to help cover living expenses. Such fellowships are exceedingly valuable for trainees and very expensive for medical schools and the NIH, so admissions committees work hard to pick the right students for their programs. Despite the high training costs, when I visit other MD/PhD programs to conduct reviews, it is not uncommon to hear deans refer to their MD/PhD program as “the jewel in the crown.” One can easily argue that the existence of MD/PhD programs is evidence of the high value that our society places on physician–scientists.

ARE MD/PhD PROGRAMS LIMITED TO THOSE INTERESTED IN LABORATORY RESEARCH?

The answer varies from school to school. Not all schools offer PhD programs in all disciplines. The majority of MD/PhD students receive their PhD in biomedical laboratory disciplines such as cell biology, biochemistry, genetics, immunology, pharmacology, neuroscience, and biomedical engineering. The names of departments and graduate programs vary from school to school. At some schools, MD/PhD trainees do their graduate work outside of the laboratory disciplines, in fields such as economics, epidemiology, health care economics, sociology, medical anthropology, or the history of science. This is not an exhaustive list, and you should check before you apply to see what is actually offered at any particular school.

Although there is no fully up-to-date and reliable list of which MD/PhD programs offer training in which graduate disciplines, a place to start is at the Website of the AAMC MD/PhD section (which is a good source for other types of information as well). 2

ARE THERE OTHER WAYS TO BECOME A PHYSICIAN–SCIENTIST?

Yes. Definitely. MD/PhD programs are a great choice for people who decide early that that they want to be physician–scientists and have built the necessary track record of academic success and research experience before they apply. Not everyone does this, however, either because he or she did not learn about the option early enough, he or she did not make a decision in time, or he or she does not have an academic and research experience record that supports an application. Not finding out early enough turns out to be a common problem. In my experience, college prehealth advisors know much less about MD/PhD training than MD training—not surprisingly, since only 3% of medical school applicants in the United States every year apply for MD/PhD training. As a result, some people choose (or are obliged) to do MD/PhD training in series, rather than parallel—finishing one degree and then starting the other. The disadvantages of this approach include taking longer to finish training and the likely need to cover the cost of medical school on your own.

I am frequently asked about the strategy of starting medical school and then applying to graduate school as a medical student. Some schools will consider you for transfer into their MD/PhD programs after you have completed a year or two of medical school or graduate school at the same university. Although it is very rare that an MD/PhD program will consider accepting a medical or graduate student from a different school, it does occasionally happen when faculty move from one institution to another and want to bring their students with them. The rules and requirements vary from school to school.

Other programs worth checking out include the NIH MD/PhD program that provides support for the PhD phase at the NIH campus or in Oxford/Cambridge, with the MD training taking place at one of the participating MSTP-designated programs. Note that not all of the MSTP programs have chosen to participate, so if you have your heart set on a specific medical school, you should be sure to ask. 3

Another option is to complete medical school and residency training before doing an extended period of supervised research. A number of Nobel Prize–winning physician–scientists did just that. However, with the increase in the number of MD/PhD training programs nationwide, most people who make the decision to become physician–­scientists while still in college should think hard about doing both degrees together in an integrated MD/PhD program that combines graduate school and medical school into a joint program that currently takes 8 years on average to complete ( Akabas et al. , 2018 ).

DO I REALLY NEED A PhD TO DO RESEARCH? CAN I SAVE TIME BY SKIPPING IT?

The answer to the first of these questions is “Clearly not.” However, while medical school will put you firmly on the path to becoming an accomplished clinician, it does not provide training in how to do research. At some point you will benefit from that additional piece of your education if you intend to become a physician–scientist.

As noted above, in years past it was not uncommon to learn how to do research by doing an extended postdoctoral fellowship after (or instead of) a clinical residency. I am often asked whether it is possible to save time on the path to becoming a physician–scientist by skipping graduate school and just going to medical school. The available data suggest that the answer to this one is “No.” Physician–scientists get their first jobs in academia and their first independent NIH grants at approximately the same age regardless of whether they completed an MD/PhD program or went solely to medical school and then did a more extended postdoc ( Ginsburg et al. , 2014 ). As a result, I normally tell undergraduates that if they are ready to make the commitment before starting medical school, MD/PhD programs offer many advantages, including integrated training, mentored research training, and medical school tuition waivers. On the other hand, if you are sure you want to be a doctor, but less sure about being a scientist, then my advice is to go to medical school and figure out the rest of what you need when you know more about the opportunities that being a physician provides.

HOW DOES MD/PhD TRAINING WORK AND HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE?

The answer varies from school to school, but historically students begin with 2 years of medical school, switch to graduate school in the third year of the program, and then return to finish medical school after completing (and defending) a thesis research project. When I was an MD/PhD student in the 1970s, there was little, if any, communication between the medical and graduate phases of the program. That has changed considerably. Now most programs emphasize integration of the MD and PhD parts of the training, with graduate school courses during years 1 and 2 and clinical experiences during graduate school. Some programs allow completion of 3–12 months of clinical training before the start of full-time graduate training. Be sure to ask how things are organized at schools that you are considering. In programs leading to a PhD in laboratory science, MD/PhD trainees usually spend the summer between the first and second years of medical school working in the laboratory of the faculty member they are considering as a potential thesis advisor. Some programs also ask students to do one of these “lab rotations” in the summer before starting medical school classes as well. Depending on the number of clinical months completed before starting the thesis research, students returning to medical school will need 1–2 years to finish their training and meet the requirements for medical licensure. The stated goal is to complete an MD/PhD program in 7 or 8 years. However, numbers from across the country show that some students finish in 6 years, while others take 10 years (or more). The average currently is 8 years ( Akabas et al. , 2018 ). Note that medical education in the United States continues to evolve. One trend is away from the classic two years of preclinical education followed by 2 years of clinical education. The earlier start in clinical training made possible by shortening preclinical time enables some MD/PhD programs to offer full-time clinical experiences before the start of graduate school. However, some schools are choosing not to do this. The only way to find out what is being done is to ask, if it is not evident from the program’s Website.

HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO COMPLETE TRAINING AFTER GRADUATING FROM AN MD/PhD PROGRAM?

Corny as this may sound, the process is never really finished. Your education will continue throughout your career. A more pragmatic answer is that training will extend beyond medical school and graduate school as you complete your post graduate education. Here are some typical numbers: MD/PhD program, 8 years. Residency, 3–6 years. Postdoctoral fellowship, 3–6 years. For most people the term “postdoctoral fellowship” includes another year or two of clinical training, followed by a return to research for 2 or more years ( Figure 1 ). For example, I completed an MD/PhD program in 6 years, followed by a residency in internal medicine (3 years) and a fellowship in clinical hemato­logy and oncology that was combined with postdoctoral training back in a lab (3 years). After that I became an assistant professor and started my own lab. That timing was fairly typical when I did it. Now it would be considered fast. On the other hand, my job description when I finished included running a research team, looking after postdocs and graduate students, and taking care of sick people with complicated medical problems, so maybe all of that training time was necessary.

Paths to becoming a physician who is also a scientist. Integrated MD/PhD training programs that combine research and medical training are not the only path to becoming a physician–scientist. Alternatives begin with doing a research year in medical school (MD+ in the figure) or just doing the standard four-year medical school education. These save time at the start, but usually require a longer period of postgraduate clinical and research training to reach the point where a job as a physician–scientist in academia becomes feasible. As a result, physician–scientists often arrive at the “get a job” point at about the same age whether they began as medical students, MD+ students, or MD/PhD students, although usually with greater student debt if they have not been in an MD/PhD program. See the text for details.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE GRADUATES OF MD/PhD PROGRAMS?

Short-term, nearly all do additional clinical training. Those who do not are usually headed toward careers at research institutes or outside clinical medicine entirely. Those who do apply for residencies often find that their MD/PhD training makes them particularly appealing to residency programs at top institutions. Long-term, most program graduates end up with careers in which they combine patient care and research. The research may be lab-based, translational, or clinical. Most (75–80%) end up at academic medical centers, at research institutions such as the NIH, or in the pharmaceutical/biotech industry ( Figure 2 ; Brass et al. , 2010 ; Akabas et al. , 2018 ). A much higher percentage of MD/PhD program graduates have ended up in academia than of medical school graduates in general ( Brass et al. , 2010 ). Those who build research careers and apply for NIH research grants find that having the PhD in addition to the MD improves their chances of obtaining funding ( Ginsburg et al. , 2014 ).

Where are they working? Data from 2202 MD/PhD program alumni who have completed all phases of postgraduate clinical and research training. Adapted from Brass et al. (2010) . Industry includes the biotech and pharmaceutical industries. Pvt Practice refers to full-time clinical practice outside of an academic medical center.

HOW DO I APPLY?

The process of application varies from school to school. Some schools have an MD/PhD-focused committee that will screen your application and coordinate the interview and admission process. Other schools consider MD/PhD applicants only after a decision has been made about MD admissions. Finally, some schools consider students for the MD/PhD program only after they have completed a year or more of medical school. Schools that subscribe to AMCAS will ask you to indicate your interest in an MD/PhD program and then to provide additional information as part of a secondary application.

WHEN DO I APPLY?

Most people apply after finishing their junior year in college, but a growing number of applicants finish college and work for a year or more before applying. Some people use the time after college to take courses needed for medical school admission or to gain more full-time laboratory research experience. Some people simply were not ready to make decisions about their future careers and postponed choosing beyond the finish of college. It is a mistake to assume that MD/PhD programs are interested only in applicants who have worked in a lab for a year or more after college. That is clearly not the case, and some of us who direct MD/PhD programs are concerned about the growing percentage of applicants who have waited to apply after they graduate in the mistaken impression that it will improve their resumes. My advice is that for a training path that lasts as long as this one does, it is best to get started as soon as possible.

WHAT DO ADMISSIONS COMMITTEES LOOK FOR?

The answer clearly varies from school to school, but some basic principles apply. In general, admissions committees will look for evidence of academic success, extended research experience, letters of recommendation from people who know you well, and your plans for the future.

• Evidence of academic success. This includes your GPA and MCAT scores, but is not limited to them. Admission committees use a holistic approach and will undoubtedly consider where you went to college and what types of courses you took. They will not necessarily be dismayed if you got off to a slow start, as long as you did well later. They will place the greatest emphasis on courses that are relevant to your chosen area of graduate school training. I have not encountered a program director who seriously believed that the MCAT tests your ability to be a physician–scientist. Nonetheless programs use MCAT scores in a variety of ways, including seeing how you compare with the national pool of applicants and predicting how you will do on the numerous standardized tests that all of us have to take in medical school and beyond.
• Extensive research experience. If you plan to get a PhD in one of the laboratory sciences, then prior laboratory experience counts heavily, particularly if you spent a year or more in the same laboratory. Summer laboratory experience can be helpful because they are usually opportunities to do research full time, but summers are short. Whenever possible, you should try to do research during the academic year, or at least spend multiple summers in the same lab. If you are planning a PhD outside of the laboratory sciences, seek equivalent experiences. The idea is to be sure you like the experience and to create a track record upon which your past performance can be judged and your future success predicted.
• Letters of recommendation. The most important letter(s) are from the faculty members or other senior investigators with whom you worked. The letters should ideally comment on your talents, skills, and potential for success as an independent investigator. If you are working with a senior faculty member, it is very helpful if he or she can compare you with other students with whom he or she has worked. Note that such a letter is not necessarily the most appropriate for an MD-only application. MD/PhD program admissions committees are usually most interested in your talent and ability as a physician–scientist, although they will definitely also consider whether you are likely to become a successful and caring physician. Fortunately, medical schools allow you to submit more than one letter of recommendation.
• Your plans for the future. Because training to be a physician–­investigator is so costly in terms of your time and the school’s resources, your career goals should be compatible with MD/PhD training. Becoming a full-time practitioner is a laudable goal, but does not require a PhD in addition to an MD. Your goal as a trained physician–investigator should be to spend at least 75% of your time on research. You do not need to know the specific problem you want to work on at this point (many do not, and it is likely to change), or with whom you would like to train, but your commitment to becoming an investigator should be clearly communicated in your essays and interviews, and you should have given thought to what will be required.

HOW DO I DECIDE WHERE TO APPLY?

Some applicants have decided that they want to work in a particular field or with a particular faculty member. For them, choosing where to apply is defined by where that faculty member works or where the field is best represented. Most applicants have only a general idea of what they might want to work on in the future and know that their interests are likely to evolve as they are exposed to new things. For them, choice will be defined by issues such as the reputation of the school (hopefully not based solely on U.S. News and World Report rankings!), the success of the graduates of the program (be sure to ask!), and geography. Schools vary in the difficulty of gaining admission. The directors and nonfaculty administrators of MD/PhD programs nationwide are a large pool of resources that you can tap. Most of us get e-mail from future applicants all the time. Take advantage of our willingness to talk with you. Ask questions about the things that are important to you.

FINAL THOUGHTS

I began this perspective with the confession that I am a physician–scientist and I like what I do. It is not unusual these days to encounter articles and opinion pieces that lament the difficulty of becoming and remaining a physician–scientist. I will not cite them here—you can find them on your own. Fortunately, our society is still willing to make a large investment in biomedical research through the NIH and through numerous foundations. If you want to become a physician who discovers the new stuff, there are jobs waiting to be filled. However, you will need good training and great mentorship as you learn the skills needed to be a physician and a research team leader. Good luck with your decision.

Acknowledgments

My thanks to my colleagues who direct MD/PhD programs, the NIH for supporting physician–scientist training (including my own), and the hundreds of MD/PhD candidates and alumni who have taught me so much over the past 20 years.

Abbreviations used:

DOI: 10.1091/mbc.E17-12-0721

1 www.aamc.org/data/facts/enrollmentgraduate/ .

2 www.aamc.org/students/research/mdphd/ .

3 http://mdphd.gpp.nih.gov .

• Akabas MH, Tartakovsky I, Brass LF. (2018). The National MD–PhD Program Outcomes Study. American Association of Medical Colleges Reports.
• Brass LF, Akabas MH, Burnley LD, Engman DM, Wiley CA, Andersen OS. (2010). Are MD–PhD programs meeting their goals? An analysis of career choices made by graduates of 24 MD–PhD programs . Acad Med , 692–701. [ PMC free article ] [ PubMed ] [ Google Scholar ]
• Ginsburg D, Shurin SB, Mills S. (2014). NIH Physician–Scientist Workforce (PSW) Working Group Report. [ Google Scholar ]

What is a Doctoral Residency?

Industry Advice Education

Students working toward a culminating degree such as a PhD or a Doctorate in Education (EdD) must participate in a doctoral residency. Most programs require the completion of a residency in order to graduate, though PhDs often require one or more years whereas EdD programs are far more flexible.

Despite these differences, at their core, all doctoral residencies offer strategic opportunities for students to meet with their peers, alumni, and industry professionals to network and share ideas related to their advanced area of study prior to graduation. 

While residency is considered one of the most significant components of these programs, students often begin their studies without a clear idea of what this experience will entail. This is often because doctoral residencies can differ in length, frequency, and even purpose depending on the program you’re in and the university that hosts it. 

This article will explore doctoral residencies for Northeastern University’s EdD students , and how these events impact these future change-makers in ways that are sure to stay with them long after graduation.

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The Structure of Doctoral Residency

In some programs, the students can identify the timing of their doctoral residencies, as well as the locations. Within Northeastern’s EdD program —which prepares students to be leaders and change agents within their communities—however, students are given two opportunities to attend a residency over the span of their program. The first occurs during their first year of study, and the second during their culminating year. While both take the form of short, compact events—in an effort to easily fit around students’ personal and professional responsibilities—each residency is structured specifically to meet students’ academic and professional needs at specific points in their educational journeys.

“In the first residency, students are coming to understand more deeply how their own work ties into the broader network,” says Karen Reiss Medwed , PhD, associate teaching professor, and the assistant dean of networks, digital engagement, and partnerships in Northeastern’s Graduate School of Education. “Students step into more of a leadership role in the second residency. They’re coming to say, ‘Here’s my work, I want others to be inspired by it and join me in it.’”

Below, we explore how each of these residencies differs in format and opportunities in order to best prepare students for an enriching career.

First-Year Residencies

The first residency for EdD students takes place at Northeastern’s Boston campus and offers a chance for students attending the program online or in one of Northeastern’s other locations to come together as a cohort of first-year doctoral students. At this stage in their learning, students in residency attend profession-based and content-specific workshops, explore the work of graduating students and alumni, and, perhaps most significantly, network with professors and fellow students within the program.

“The first residency…[offers students] an opportunity to locate their peer groups,” Reiss Medwed says. “We find that students who meet at residency in year one stay connected and often [act] as a support group all the way through the end of their dissertation work.” 

Especially in a program like the EdD , which requires out-of-the-box thinking and risk-taking in order to cultivate change, students can benefit from the consistent feedback and support of their peers.

Second-Year Residencies

The second time students attend residency, both the design of the event and the goals of attendance shift to fit the evolving needs of the students. These residencies take place “around the calendar year and around the world” in order to best set students up for success in local industries and markets. This adjustment in location also allows aspiring professionals to create a network not just with their peers but with industry leaders and changemakers in their own region.

“There’s really an opportunity to experience the global network that Northeastern affords all of us [at these residencies],” Reiss Medwed says. “[Students can] encounter partners from around the country and think deeply about our shared work and our shared language.” 

Did You Know: Though residencies at this stage are often hosted at Northeastern’s campuses in Boston , Toronto , Charlotte , and Seattle , the university works to provide opportunities for students across the globe to come together at this culminating stage of their education.

Rather than simply being in residency to observe and be inspired by others, students at second-year events are also now the ones sharing their work, ideas, and processes with the other attendees.

“Ultimately, we believe that [a second-year doctoral residency] allows us to further our impact in making a difference in the world by bringing together students across affinity groups who are doing the same type of change work,” Reiss Medwed says. “They can [then] build off each other’s energies and move forward knowing that they’re improving the human condition in each of their locations.”

The Purpose of a Doctoral Residency

While each stage of a doctoral residency offers students distinct small-scale goals, the inclusion of such practices in EdD curriculum is quite significant. Below, we explore the three main objectives of a doctoral residency for EdD students at Northeastern.

1. Bringing Students, Faculty, and Alumni Together

Northeastern’s EdD program is offered fully online and is designed in a way that allows full-time, working professionals to pursue their degree without having to struggle to balance school with their existing careers . Yet, while this structure is ideal in terms of flexibility for professionals, it doesn’t allow for many face-to-face interactions or opportunities for idea-sharing among students or among students and faculty—two aspects of learning that Northeastern’s faculty value.

Reiss Medwed identifies this as one of the main reasons that Northeastern’s EdD program has included residencies that allow students to come together across locations as a core component of the curriculum. These events bridge the gap created by virtual learning and provide students the chance to be inspired by their peers.

“Because we are a fully virtual program, the opportunities for students and faculty to come together in that face-to-face environment have to be planned and anticipated,” Reiss Medwed says. “The doctoral residency is first and foremost a way to leverage building that community and those relationships among students and between students and faculty.”

Northeastern has also formatted its residencies to allow for alumni participation. These graduates can attend the event to meet and speak with students, present their completed theses, and help inspire their peers with their ongoing work.

“It’s really important to see where you go after you graduate, and so we always make sure there’s alumni engagement [at these events],” she says. “[Besides], when you’re in a room with 100 students at a residency, and 15 alumni are presenting their work, it’s impossible not to feel inspired.”

2. Practicing Your Professional Voice

Across industries, leaders consider well-developed presentation skills some of the most important for professionals to obtain. For students hoping to use the power of communication and presentation to elicit change as leaders in the world, however, these skills are more than just useful—they’re mandatory.

This is why the faculty who designed the doctoral residencies within the EdD program created an opportunity for second-year students to present their work as part of the event. “We like to leverage time at the residencies for [students] to practice presentation and delivery skills in that face-to-face environment while they’re still part of our program and we can offer them insight as to how they use [this experience] to advance their own professional skill sets, voices, and careers,” Reiss Medwed says.

Though some may worry that a presentation component of a doctorate degree could be stressful, students actually work up to this high-level presentation over the course of the program. “One of the final courses in the program [has you] prepare your proposals and your presentation for this type of event,” Reiss Medwed says. “This is intentional because then you’ve practiced doing that amongst your peers.”

These presentations work to inspire students in the early stages of the EdD program, while simultaneously allowing presenters to prepare for the next stages of their careers. “We want you to [eventually] go out there and talk to people, present your work, put it on a TED Talk , [or] go present to your school board,” Reiss Medwed says. Before students are faced with those real-world applications of their work, however, she encourages them to “practice on your peers first inside a residency; it’s a nurturing safe space with your colleagues and with faculty who can offer feedback.”

3. Professional and Career Development

One of the most significant components of the EdD’s doctoral residency is the array of workshops students can attend. These workshops, led by faculty or alumni, offer tailored guidance in regard to professional and career development that students can call upon for years to come. These might come in the form of a seminar on improving your resumé , a discussion on how to best leverage your LinkedIn profile or online portfolio , or even a mock interview session for those embarking upon a job search.

Northeastern’s faculty believes that including this element into the residency allows students to walk away with not only a broader understanding of their industry, but actionable tips as to how to establish the career they want within it, as well.

Doctoral Residencies at Northeastern

Although Reiss Medwed identifies that some form of face-to-face experience is common in doctorate programs across the board—especially those held mostly online—she notes that “Northeastern has a few unique approaches to it” that have been incorporated to set EdD students up for substantial success.

An Experiential Approach

Residencies led by student voices are fairly uncommon in this space, yet this key component has evolved to define Northeastern’s event. “We first began residencies with faculty presenters, transitioned into bringing in our alumni as panelists, and now we [operate on] a conference model where students themselves present their work to one another with great intentionality.” 

While this approach has many benefits—including the honing of these professionals’ vital presentation skills—perhaps the most significant is its tie to Northeastern’s experiential learning model . “What it means to do experiential learning is to practice the work that you’re doing,” Reiss Medwed says, emphasizing that this presentation element of residency provides students the perfect chance to do just that.

Cross-Industry Exposure

Another way in which doctoral residencies in Northeastern’s EdD program differ from others in the sector is that students are encouraged to explore opportunities that are related to more than just the education industry. In fact, these events strategically provide chances for students to network and learn across a variety of impactful fields and organizations.

“Our residencies are spaces…[that allow us to] build a network in a connected way across the pipelines of education,” Reiss Medwed says. “This isn’t just a space for doctoral students to talk amongst themselves. We reject the ivory tower notion. [Instead] our students are working with alumni or partners in the field, teachers or supervisors in the K-12 world, business leaders, non-profit leaders, and much more.”

This exposure to industry leaders across a variety of sectors and even a variety of physical locations provides a unique chance for EdD students to build connections with those they may encounter or work with during their pursuit of change.

Reiss Medwed observes that “there is a commonality about the passion our students have for making a difference in the world. There is a commonality about the ways in which they think about approaching research, and about the questions, they are asking about how to make the workforce a better place which translates across topics.”

Embracing Reflection as a Key Part of Learning

With so much going on in such a short time, events like doctoral residencies may seem overwhelming to the average student. Faculty at Northeastern, however, embrace the robustness of these events and ask that their students properly record their experiences using Northeastern’s Self-Authored Integrated Learning (SAIL) tool, which allows students to reflect upon the presentations that sparked their interest, people they met, ideas they fostered, and inspiration they took from the event. By writing all of this down within the tool—and drawing parallels for future reference—students should be able to call upon these defining experiences even as they advance in the program and in their careers.

Reiss Medwed hopes that using the SAIL tool in this way will “allow students both to be more self-reflective about their experiences at residencies as a conference and as an experiential learning opportunity, and also to be able to identify the professional growth that these conferences afford them.”

Earning an EdD at Northeastern

Alongside a unique and well-developed residency component, the EdD program at Northeastern provides students looking to elicit change in their environments a clear and effective path toward success. Learn more about doctoral residencies and Northeastern’s Doctorate in Education program, then reach out to an enrollment coach today to learn how an EdD can positively impact your career.

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Demystifying the MD/PhD

• November 9, 2021
• / Reviewed by: Amy Rontal, MD

Somewhere in your training process you will probably encounter someone with an MD/PhD degree or someone who is in training for one.

Everyone knows that, for the most part, MDs are physicians who take care of patients, whereas PhDs are scientists who traditionally tend to spend their time running a lab with classroom responsibilities on the side.

What does an MD/PhD do?

There is no secretive, mystifying career path for MD/PhD trainees and graduates. If MDs see patients as physicians and PhDs conduct research as scientists, MD/PhDs are combination “physician-scientists.”

Often times, MD/PhD careers are obfuscated by the long training process, different residency tracks and confusing job descriptions.

Why do MD/PhDs want to practice medicine and run a lab?

MD/PhDs are interested in translational research, which is a process that brings bench top research to bedside therapeutics. The ability to treat patients and perform research gives you a unique skill set wherein you are able to draw on clinical experiences to design your research hypotheses, and apply those research hypotheses and your experimental findings directly to the patient population you treat.

Besides being a “cool” thing to do, an MD/PhD’s role is important. There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that the rate at which new therapies are being developed is actually declining despite increased investment in research and development, both in academics and in industry. There are plenty of explanations offered, but a compelling one is that most physicians see patients but don’t have the research expertise to push therapies forward, while most scientists have the research expertise but don’t have the clinical expertise to implement them. Thus, MD/PhDs have a unique role in bridging this gap between science and medicine.

How do I become an MD/PhD?

The most common way to become an MD/PhD is to enroll in an MD/PhD program. MD/PhD programs exist to provide streamlined training for students to achieve both degrees in a reasonable amount of time (seven or eight years). Most programs provide a scholarship that pays tuition and fees for both medical school and graduate school on top of an annual stipend that can range from school to school.

The less common route to becoming an MD/PhD is to go to school to get an MD and then get a PhD at a later time, or vice versa.

How do I get into an MD/PhD program?

The admissions process for MD/PhD programs is very similar to that of medical school. First, you indicate you are applying to MD/PhD Programs instead of MD programs when you submit your AMCAS application.

For MD/PhD admissions, you have to write a few extra supplemental essays describing your career goals in addition to the traditional MD essays. At each school you apply to, you will then be reviewed either by the MD/PhD program admissions committees or separately by both the MD admissions committee and PhD admissions committee.

You will be invited to interview, where you will meet with faculty from the MD, PhD, and MD/PhD programs (typically, they will also wine and dine you which is more typical of PhD admissions but rare in MD admissions). Qualified students who demonstrate a commitment both to medicine as well as research and demonstrate the willingness to do both are accepted to matriculate in the coming fall.

Although there is no “cookie-cutter” MD/PhD applicant, successful applicants meet many of the same criteria that  successful medical school applicants  do, but in lieu of (or in addition to) extensive clinical experiences, they will have more research experience.

Read our blog post on  MD/PhD admissions  for more information!

What is MD/PhD training like?

For the most part, MD/PhD training is medical school and graduate school integrated into seven or eight years. Typically, students will do two years of their MD training and their USMLE Step 1 before taking three to four years (or more) to complete their PhD. Upon completion of the PhD, students will return to medical school to complete their last two years and earn their medical degree.

The unique feature of an MD/PhD program’s training is that although students are technically only enrolled in one degree program at once, they are also fulfilling degree requirements of the other program simultaneously. This means that during medical school, students are taking graduate school coursework and during graduate school, students are staying connected to the medical school through shadowing and other clinical opportunities.

After training, MD/PhDs take a variety of routes. Most go on to residency programs to become licensed physicians with research tracks to allow them to become physician-scientists. There are MD/PhD-specific residency routes that also contain research years to provide MD/PhD students with research experience to run their own lab in the future. Some MD/PhD trainees will go on to only do a residency without research, while some will go on to do a post-doctoral fellowship without clinical training. Others will begin working in industry immediately after graduation.

It may be clear then that although MD/PhD programs are intent on training physician-scientists, not everyone goes on to do this. The majority do, but career goals evolve over time and certainly MD/PhD trainees and graduates go on to do many more things besides becoming physician-scientists.

Do I really need an MD/PhD to be a physician-scientist?

No, you do not need to earn an MD/PhD to be a physician-scientist. You can do research and see patients with just an MD, and many people do this.

However, consider that as an MD, applying for research funding and academic positions will be much harder when your competition is PhDs who have several more years of experience doing exclusively research. In an environment in which research funding is becoming increasingly competitive, MD/PhDs have a unique advantage over both their MD and PhD counterparts. That being said, plenty of MDs are successful physician-scientists who achieve as much if not more than their MD/PhD counterparts.

Are MD/PhDs paid more?

Unfortunately, MD/PhDs are not paid more than their MD counterparts. Research doesn’t pay as well as seeing patients does, so MD/PhDs who spend their time doing research naturally compromise some of the salary they would make as a physician. At the end of the day, MD/PhDs are fairly compensated but do not make the salary that an equal who spent 100% of their time seeing patients would make.

The biggest advantage financially to doing an MD/PhD is to graduate without debt. Moreover, there are certainly ways to leverage MD/PhD degrees towards career paths that are better compensated financially, but these options are unique and differ on a person-to-person basis. One should not go into an MD/PhD program for a lucrative career path. Hopefully it rewards by other means!

What else can I do with an MD/PhD?

While becoming a physician-scientist to see patients and do basic or translational research is the traditional route most people will take, there are plenty of other options. Many MD/PhD graduates go on to work for large research institutions like the NIH and don’t see patients at all. Others go on to work in industry, where they become leaders in drug development and draw from both their clinical and research training.

Some graduates may become involved in startups and form their own company. A small fraction of MD/PhD program graduates will also go on to private practice. There is no preferred career pathway, although graduates are certainly encouraged to take advantage of both degrees, and not just one of them. At the end of the day, an MD/PhD will open more doors, but in the meanwhile it is important to think about whatever your career goals may be and whether they warrant several additional years of training.

To learn more about becoming a physician-scientist, check out  APSA  (the American Physician Scientists Association) and read these  articles about physician-scientists .

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Fostering the Physician-Scientist in the Workforce

When Pete Hendrickson, MD, PhD , finishes his residency, his graduation will mark not only a personal accomplishment, but an institutional one as well – he will be the first trainee to complete residency through the novel Radiation Oncology Research Scholar (RORS) track at Duke Radiation Oncology . 

Hendrickson’s interest in genetics-based research began during his time in college. “The human genome sequencing project had recently finished, and genetics was front and center in science,” he recalled. “Everyone knew this was going to transform how we study and practice medicine. I fell in love with it right away.”

That led him to two years in a clinical research lab at Northwestern University and the Children’s Memorial Hospital of Chicago (now Lurie Children’s Hospital). “Although the very basic science research I was doing as an undergrad was exciting in its own way, it wasn’t until I got here that I realized science is so much more than an academic pursuit. At the end of the day, it’s about leveraging lab-based discoveries to help real people. That’s when I realized the MD/PhD pathway was right for me.”

Hendrickson completed his MD/PhD at the University of Utah, where he became interested in cancer genomics and developmental biology. He completed his PhD thesis in the lab of Bradley Cairns, PhD (an HHMI investigator at the Huntsman Cancer Center), where he made a seminal discovery identifying DUX4 as a master regulator of embryonic cell fate. He decided to match into radiation oncology.

“I knew I wanted to see and treat cancer patients and radiation oncology to me was the most intellectually and professionally rewarding of the oncology-based disciplines,” he said.

“And scientifically, I think I saw a unique opportunity in radiation oncology to build on my interests and experience in genomics in a way that could meaningfully impact patient outcomes.” 

Enter Duke Radiation Oncology. When Hendrickson started looking into residencies, Duke stood out. “I felt Duke was at the forefront of research in oncology, and more specifically radiation oncology,” he said.

He reached out to one of Duke’s principal investigators early on, and even before applying to residencies, “Duke just seemed like the right fit.”

What solidified his decision was the establishment of the RORS track in 2019, and his chance to be the first RORS trainee.  

The Road to Radiation Oncology

The RORS track, a first-of-its-kind program nationally, was developed by faculty at Duke to provide a pathway for radiation oncologist physician-scientists to become independent laboratory investigators.

The RORS track combines a research-intensive residency with the opportunity to continue mentored research post-residency as an instructor, allowing a total of 45 months of dedicated scholarly effort.

The unique aspect of the program is early commitment at the time of the residency match to candidates with strong backgrounds and high potential for success. The long research time horizon and strong institutional support allows RORS scholars the opportunity to think big and try bold, high-impact projects to rapidly generate data and lead to early career development awards. 

“Although radiation oncology is one of the key cancer disciplines, it is the only one that does not have a specific track to guide trainees to become independently funded investigators,” said Joseph Salama, MD , residency program director and co-creator of the RORS track.

Despite many MD/PhD graduates entering the field of radiation oncology in past years, there are few externally funded physician-scientists, and only a fraction of NIH cancer research funding is awarded to investigators in radiation oncology. In creating the RORS track, Salama and others hoped to bolster young physician-scientists in the field by providing an adequate training structure and continued mentored research time after residency.

“The RORS track is meant to provide the time, structure and funding to make a runway for trainees so that they can lead their own independent research lab after residency,” Salama said.

This protected time the RORS pathway offers is especially critical to young physician-scientists – time to delve into projects, time to cultivate ideas, time to make meaningful contributions to the field and, maybe most critically, time to apply for K08 awards to facilitate the transition to being an independent physician-scientist.

Reflections on Training

“At the end of the day, the RORS track is the most direct path to success as a physician-scientist in this field,” Hendrickson said. As the first RORS trainee, he said he has “benefitted most from the close-knit community of faculty at Duke who have mentored me in all aspects of the training path from bench to bedside.” Now, with four other RORS trainees in the residency program, “I think we’re starting to build a pipeline for success that is going to be helpful for younger RORS trainees. Most importantly, I can’t emphasize how important it is to be in an environment where there are others who are doing the same thing and who share a common vision for their career.”

Sarah Brady is a communication strategist in the Duke Department of Radiation Oncology.

Photography by Huth Photo.

This story appeared in the Duke Department of Radiation Oncology 2024 Annual Report .

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What is a doctoral residency?

February 1, 2019

When looking at the components of a PhD or professional doctorate program, many of the parts may seem (on the surface, anyway) easy to understand: Coursework. Research. Dissertation or Capstone.

But there are also requirements involving residencies. Curtis Brant, PhD, Associate Vice President of Doctoral Affairs, explains the process.

Different from coursework

The residency portion of a Capella PhD or professional doctorate (ProDoc) program occurs simultaneously with coursework. “Residencies are face to face academic experiences that occur as part of a course experience and offer students a chance to make significant progress on their dissertations,” says Brant.

During Capella residencies, the student will connect directly with faculty and other students from their courses. They can also meet with consultants from Capella’s research and writing groups, as well as the Institutional Review Board (IRB). Students can gain many of the needed levels of approval for research topics and methodology through residencies. “Residencies allow students to get feedback on their dissertation or capstone topics and methods much earlier than in more traditional programs and thus allows students a head start on completing their final project,” says Brant.

Capella residency structure and content

At Capella residencies, there is always an in-person component. Capella provides weekend residencies, usually taking place Thursday through Sunday. Students may be asked to complete pre-work in preparation for the upcoming in-person session, and there could be post-residency coursework as well.

What will be covered in Capella’s residencies will vary according to your program’s focus and requirements, but the following are examples of topics and skills covered:

• Learn how to identify a research problem.
• Examine and narrow down potential topic areas.
• Develop a literature review.
• Craft a well-formed research question.
• Select the appropriate research methodology and design.
• Develop a full research plan.

Residencies not only provide you with guidance during the development of your dissertation topic and research plans, they also help you receive thorough feedback and several levels of necessary approvals. The proficiency gained will prepare you for both the comprehensive exams that follow and the heart of the PhD: the dissertation, or the ProDoc: the capstone.

Capella University offers PhD and professional doctorate degrees in programs ranging from business to education and psychology to nursing. Learn more about  Capella’s doctoral degree programs .

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Ph.D after residency--dumb idea?

• Thread starter WorkaholicsAnon
• Start date Dec 17, 2008

WorkaholicsAnon

Full member.

• Dec 17, 2008

howelljolly

You really dont need to go for a PhD. Take advantage of the MD and board eligability you already have. Off the top of my head... If I were in your position, the first thing I'd consider is a research fellowship (for MDs)... with 80% research, 20% clinical. Google it... you'd have to know what you're looking for. There are plenty of them, and some lead to a Masters degree as well. To me, it would be more of a natural progression toward the goal, rather than dropping medicine, and going for a PhD, and then getting back into the clinical side for translational research. Heres an example: http://dgim.ucsf.edu/education/clinresearch.html . If you have a particular clinical interest, you could look for something more specific, such as.. http://www.aan.com/go/foundation/research The other thing I might do, go for a M.S. in clinical investigation, part time, while you work. I really dont know jack, but I suspect that the first option will be an easier transition, since they specifically train clinicians to do research. Here are some websites that might help http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.or...s_issues/articles/2007_08_17/caredit_a0700117 http://www.cc.nih.gov/researchers/training.shtml  

Junior Member

Yes, it is a dumb idea.  

Pastafarian

WorkaholicsAnon said: I have a little less than a year left of IM residency. I want to have a translational research-based career, and despite past research experience and a first-author paper on original research, I feel a bit underprepared as far as labwork goes, and am a bit burned out by the clinical world nowadays anyway, so I was considering going for a Ph.D after finishing residency training. It is a big pay cut (about 50% less than the resident's salary i'm currently living on), but i'd be able to defer my loans with in-school deferment and I'd get student benefits. I dont have kids to support at the moment. And i'm thinking i might be able to moonlight occasionally for extra cash. Any thoughts on why doing this might not be such a great idea? (besides the money) Am I completely out of my mind? Anyone have experience doing so,or know anyone who did this? Any regrets? Click to expand...

mercaptovizadeh

Ἐδάκρυσεν ὁ ἰησοῦς.

• Dec 18, 2008

Who, me? A doctor?

WorkaholicsAnon said: ...Any thoughts on why doing this might not be such a great idea? (besides the money) Am I completely out of my mind? Anyone have experience doing so,or know anyone who did this? Any regrets? Click to expand...

howelljolly said: Hey, he cant have that fellowship.... that one's mine! Click to expand...

RxnMan said: I wasn't suggesting he *take* one of those you pointed out, just that he should look at the ones you suggested. ... or ... Are you saying you want the CU one ? 'cause then I might have to take this to the Thunderdome... Click to expand...

WorkaholicsAnon said: I have a little less than a year left of IM residency. I want to have a translational research-based career, and despite past research experience and a first-author paper on original research, I feel a bit underprepared as far as labwork goes, and am a bit burned out by the clinical world nowadays anyway, so I was considering going for a Ph.D after finishing residency training. Click to expand...

Dark Lord of the Sith

Check out two examples along the lines you are interested in: UCLA STAR Program http://www.star.med.ucla.edu/ UCSD Physician-Scientist Training Program http://pstp.ucsd.edu/ I'm sure there are a bunch of other programs like this, both formal and informal.  

Workin it...

• Dec 20, 2008

There are certainly people that have done this and it has not led to career stagnation. Dr Iannotti, chairman of orthopedic surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, did this and has ascended to one of the most respected orthopods in the country. The hard part is finding a clinical dept that is will to take you as a clinician for 30% of your time and give you 70% of protected time to do your PhD. So you get paid for 30% of your time as a clinician and 70% of your time as a researcher. Don't let other people discourage you, if you really want to do it then go for it, but you have to find the right institution with the right support system for it to work. Good luck  

JDWflash44 said: There are certainly people that have done this and it has not led to career stagnation. Dr Iannotti, chairman of orthopedic surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, did this and has ascended to one of the most respected orthopods in the country. The hard part is finding a clinical dept that is will to take you as a clinician for 30% of your time and give you 70% of protected time to do your PhD. So you get paid for 30% of your time as a clinician and 70% of your time as a researcher. Don't let other people discourage you, if you really want to do it then go for it, but you have to find the right institution with the right support system for it to work. Good luck Click to expand...

RxnMan said: Take a look at the links provided in the thread. All of these programs provide exactly what you're saying Iannotti did. He just arranged his own research fellowship. Any graduate of residency can do this; we're saying that this person should not go back as a 100% PhD student. Click to expand...

WorkaholicsAnon said: See, i think the issue with me is that I want to take a bit of a break from the clinical world after residency in the sense of having a set up that is relatively time-flexible (i.e. mostly research + moonlighting here and there). If i wanted something more rigid within a clinical department, I could go for a clinical fellowship, since that usually involves protected research time, especially during 2nd year in most of them. What if I went for a ph.d program and then tried to moonlight occasionally for extra money? Do you guys thing that would work? Click to expand...

Yup, what Vader says... and 1. a PhD is no joke. My MD/PhD friends actually have more brutal schedules when they are doing the PhD thing. There are deadlines, experiments running around the clock, papers to write, cell lines to rescue, schedules, lecturing, theres even scutwork - in the form of "write this abstract" or "draft a grant proposal for me". I cant give you details, because I dont have a PhD, but I promise you, my friends had longer working hours and less flexible schedules when they were doing their PhD work. You really will not be able to make your own schedule.... and then after thats all done, you'll be expected to do a post-doc or two... Theres flexibility in rigid clinical schedules... thats why EM, Path, and Radio are considered lifestyle specialties 2. What sort of moonlighting could you do? You could the the doc-in-the-box thing once in a while, but you wouldn't get paid much for it, and you may not find it worthwhile, and it might stress you out even more. What sort of research are you interested in? Of course you could go for a clinical fellowship with protected research time, but we're all assuming that thats not something you want. What are your thoughts on a research fellowship, with or without a PhD? Again, I dont have a PhD, but I really think that if you were to get one, that would be the most inflexible 6 years of your life.  

Vader said: It would help if you explain what you mean by "a bit of a break". To me, the reasons you are interested in research are not particularly clear. A Ph.D. in the biological sciences in a stand-alone program will take you 5-7 years to complete. Some Ph.D. programs restrict outside employment such that you may not be technically allowed to moonlight. If you are allowed or do so unofficially, it is also important to think about how much money you would like to make to live to your standard of living. You could probably fairly easily make the equivalent of a clinical fellow by moonlighting not too frequently (i.e. a few times a month). But remember, moonlighting is not exactly "taking a break from the clinical world". Moreover, you would be off the clinical track, so should you decide to specialize, this would require a clinical fellowship and its attendant commitments. Click to expand...

WorkaholicsAnon said: The reasons I want to do research are a little bit beside the point, but since you ask. . .I've always wanted a research career. I have a scientific background from undergrad, did a lot of research during college as well as a year-long research fellowship at the NIH, and am passionate about research. I want to be an innovator that this is what I will find most rewarding from a career. Click to expand...

WorkaholicsAnon said: The reasons I want to do research are a little bit beside the point, but since you ask. . . Are you saying that it might be difficult to get back into the clinical world if I go off into Ph.D land for a while? If I take the internal medicine boards in the August after I finish residency, how would it be difficult? Click to expand...

themudphud said: So actually I think the reason you want to do the research has a lot to do with whether it is a good idea or not. And if you want an academic career, then I would totally do it! But I would time it to overlap with research you do during your fellowship. Don't do the PhD now if you are planning on doing a fellowship afterwards. Here's why, when you do the PhD, you will build up a ton of momentum with regards to your research--a ton I tell you. When you drop that research to do a clinical fellowship, you will lose most if not all of the momentum. At the point when I finished my PhD, I could've spent another year in the lab and cranked out a few more high quality papers--I had a ton of momentum. But I had to go back to the wards and, yes, I keep doing some stuff on the side, but I have lost a lot of the momentum I had before. Now take my buddy who had a couple years of research built into the end of his clinical fellowship but took those two years and ultimately added another two-three and got a PhD. Now my buddy is looking for a faculty job and will take a ton of research momentum to that faculty post--will hit the ground running. Sometimes I think this may actually be a better/more efficient route than doing the MSTP, since I feel like I'll have to do a few years of research postdoc after I finish residency/fellowship despite having done a PhD already. I think if you time it right--it is absolutely a great thing to do since it sounds like you want an academic career. Click to expand...

howelljolly said: We're not trying to be nosey or anything. Knowing why you want to do research will help come up with the best way for you. You won't have a problem getting back into the clinical world after years of research or a PhD... clinical medicine doesnt move that fast. The reverse isnt true though. Research, and academic medicine moves very fast. But, being a board eligible internist, you have so many more options available.... and some of those options will open more doors for you than others. Click to expand...

• Dec 21, 2008

WorkaholicsAnon said: I didn't mean for my phrase to come across as me thinking of you guys as nosey. The way Vader phrased his/her question about what my reasons were for wanting to do research came across as an implication that I wanted to do research simply to take a break from clinical work, which is inaccurate. Thanks for the encouragement, though. Which options will open more doors for me? Doing a research fellowship you mean? Click to expand...

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Feedback Sought on Implementing Recommendations to Re-envision the Postdoctoral Experience

NIH is dedicated to improving the postdoctoral experience to ensure the biomedical research enterprise can retain and attract our nation’s brightest scientific minds and remain globally competitive.

A December 2023 report from the Advisory Committee to the NIH Director (ACD) is informing our efforts to help re-envision the postdoctoral experience. We have thought about what can be implemented and how to do so within our authorities since the ACD report came out and after considering the thoughtful and deliberate conversations with the Working Group, public listening sessions , and thousands of comments in response to a 2023 Request for Information (RFI). We announced earlier this year an increase in stipend levels for pre- and postdoctoral scholars at grantee institutions. Further increases are planned over the next five years pending the availability of funds.

Today, we seek your input via a new RFI to help us implement specific ACD recommendations:

• Limiting the amount of time a postdoctoral scholar can be supported by NIH funds to five years as a means to promote greater structure to the postdoctoral training process and help facilitate timely transition to independent careers: What are your thoughts on capping NIH-supported postdoctoral support or participation in particular programs for a set period of time to accelerate transition into biomedical careers? Would any institutional policies hinder or help with that?
• Revising the K99/R00 mechanism to focus on potential and ideas, and shortening the eligibility window and refocusing review criteria to facilitate more rapid transition of postdoctoral scholars and allow for more early career researchers from varying experiences to participate: How can this NIH program be restructured to focus more on ideas and creativity, and less on productivity? What metrics would be needed to assess this?
• Promote training and professional development opportunities for postdoctoral scholars and their mentors: Mentoring and professional development are integral and defining elements for postdoctoral experiences. How can NIH and extramural institutions ensure that career and professional development training becomes an integrated and measured component of the postdoctoral experience?  What skills and competencies are needed to strengthen professional development for mentors? Are there ways to better integrate professional development training into the postdoctoral experience?

Your additional specific suggestions, evidence-based strategies, and relevant data or related experiences will help inform our potential strategies to implement the ACD recommendations. Feedback will be accepted electronically until October 23, 2024.

We wholeheartedly agree with ACD WG’s sentiment that “to enact positive change for postdoctoral scholars, an overall cultural shift is needed to make substantial and sustained progress.” And that such changes will, when working together, “result in large steps forward in ensuring U.S. postdoctoral positions become increasingly desirable, competitive, sustainable, and inclusive and that they better recognize and reward the value and wellbeing of postdoctoral scholars.”

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We can train as well as we possibly can and offer whatever salary one could imagine, but the prospect of taking on the position of academic research-focused faculty, to which many would aspire, is so daunting and miserable a proposition that no sane person would want to do this job. The competitive grant funding mechanism of the US does indeed drive innovation and excellence, but also sleepless nights and anxiety wondering how one is going to maintain the salaries of their (single mother, underpaid) employees, the research endeavors of their trainees, and (last but not least) their own salaries. This is not the case elsewhere and, as faculty myself, I would not wish this existence on any future trainee despite its intellectual perks. Improve overall funding and you improve US academia as a potentially desirable career.

There was a perception by some people that a 5 year limit postdoc policy was already in place. I think it is really difficult to develop an across-the-board policy that makes sense for all disciplines because some science takes longer than other science to mature. The best idea above, but the hardest to implement or enforce, is better integration of career and professional development training during the postdoc. As it stands, in most places this is very limited. But if this is indeed emphasized and incorporated then the time for those activities would also now need to be factored into the timeline of the postdoc.

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FACT FOCUS: A look at false claims around Kamala Harris and her campaign for the White House

Democrats are quickly rallying around Vice President Kamala Harris as their likely presidential nominee after President Joe Biden’s ground-shaking decision to bow out of the 2024 race.

Vice President Kamala Harris arrives to speak from the South Lawn of the White House in Washington, Monday, July 22, 2024, during an event with NCAA college athletes. This is her first public appearance since President Joe Biden endorsed her to be the next presidential nominee of the Democratic Party. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)

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The announcement that Vice President Kamala Harris will seek the Democratic nomination for president is inspiring a wave of false claims about her eligibility and her background. Some first emerged years ago, while others only surfaced after President Joe Biden’s decision to end his bid for a second term.

Here’s a look at the facts.

CLAIM: Harris is not an American citizen and therefore cannot serve as commander in chief.

THE FACTS: Completely false . Harris is a natural born U.S. citizen. She was born on Oct. 20, 1964, in Oakland, California, according to a copy of her birth certificate, obtained by The Associated Press.

Her mother, a cancer researcher from India, and her father, an economist from Jamaica, met as graduate students at the University of California, Berkeley.

Under the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, anyone born on U.S. soil is considered a natural born U.S. citizen and eligible to serve as either the vice president or president.

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside,” reads the amendment.

There is no question or legitimate debate about whether a citizen like Harris is eligible to serve as president or vice president, said Jessica Levinson, a professor at Loyola Law School.

“So many legal questions are really nuanced — this isn’t one of those situations,” Levinson told the AP on Monday.

Still, social media posts making the debunked assertion that Harris cannot serve as president went viral soon after Biden announced Sunday that he was dropping out of the race and would back Harris for president.

“Kamala Harris is not eligible to run for President,” read one post on X that was liked more than 34,000 times. “Neither of her parents were natural born American citizens when she was born.”

False assertions about Harris’ eligibility began circulating in 2019 when she launched her bid for the presidency. They got a boost, thanks in part to then-President Donald Trump, when Biden selected her as his running mate.

“I heard today that she doesn’t meet the requirements,” the Republican said of Harris in 2019.

CLAIM: Harris is not Black.

THE FACTS: This is false. Harris is Black and Indian . Her father, Donald Harris, is a Black man who was born in Jamaica. Shyamala Gopalan, her mother, was born in southern India. Harris has spoken publicly for many years, including in her 2019 autobiography , about how she identifies with the heritage of both her parents.

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Despite ample evidence to the contrary, social media users are making erroneous claims about Harris’ race.

“Just a reminder that Kamala Harris @KamalaHarris isn’t black,” reads one X post that had received approximately 42,000 likes and 20,400 shares as of Monday. “She Indian American. She pretends to be black as part of the delusional, Democrat DEI quota.”

But Harris is both Black and Indian. Indeed, she is the first woman, Black person and person of South Asian descent to serve as vice president. This fact is highlighted in her biography on WhiteHouse.gov and she has spoken about her ethnicity on many occasions.

Harris wrote in her autobiography, “The Truths We Hold: An American Journey,” that she identifies with the heritage of both her mother and father.

“My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots,” she wrote. “Our classical Indian names harked back to our heritage, and we were raised with a strong awareness and appreciation for Indian culture.”

In the next paragraph, she adds, “My mother understood very well that she was raising two black daughters.” Harris again refers to herself as a “black woman” in the book’s next chapter.

CLAIM: Harris got her start by having an affair with a married man, California politician Willie Brown.

THE FACTS: This is missing some important context. Brown was separated from his wife during the relationship, which was not a secret.

Brown, 90, is a former mayor of San Francisco who was serving as speaker of the California State Assembly in the 1990s when he and Harris were in a relationship. Brown had separated from his wife in 1982.

“Yes, we dated. It was more than 20 years ago,” Brown wrote in 2020 in the San Francisco Chronicle under the article title, “Sure, I dated Kamala Harris. So what?”

He wrote that he supported Harris’ first race to be San Francisco district attorney — just as he has supported a long list of other California politicians, including former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, former Sen. Dianne Feinstein and Gov. Gavin Newsom.

Harris, 59, was state attorney general from 2011-2017 and served in the Senate from 2017 until 2021, when she became vice president. She has been married to Doug Emhoff since 2014.

Harris’ critics have used the past relationship to question her qualifications, as Fox News personality Tomi Lahren did when she wrote on social media in 2019: “Kamala did you fight for ideals or did you sleep your way to the top with Willie Brown.” Lahren later apologized for the comment.

Trump and some of his supporters have also highlighted the nearly three-decade old relationship in recent attacks on Harris .

CLAIM: An Inside Edition clip of television host Montel Williams holding hands with Harris and another woman is proof that Harris was his “side piece.”

THE FACTS: The clip shows Montel with Harris and his daughter, Ashley Williams. Harris and Williams, a former marine who hosted “The Montel Williams Show” for more than a decade, dated briefly in the early 2000s.

In the clip, taken from a 2019 Inside Edition segment , Williams can be seen posing for photographs and holding hands with both women as they arrive at the 2001 Eighth Annual Race to Erase MS in Los Angeles.

But social media users are misrepresenting the clip, using it as alleged evidence that Harris was Montel’s “side piece” — a term used to describe a person, typically a woman, who has a sexual relationship with a man in a monogamous relationship.

Williams addressed the false claims in an X post on Monday, writing in reference to the Inside Edition clip, “as most of you know, that is my daughter to my right.” Getty Images photos from the Los Angeles gala identify the women as Harris and Ashley Williams.

In 2019, Williams described his relationship with Harris in a post on X, then known as Twitter.

“@KamalaHarris and I briefly dated about 20 years ago when we were both single,” he wrote in an X post at the time. “So what? I have great respect for Sen. Harris. I have to wonder if the same stories about her dating history would have been written if she were a male candidate?”

CLAIM: Harris promised to inflict the “vengeance of a nation” on Trump supporters.

THE FACTS: A fabricated quote attributed to Harris is spreading online five years after it first surfaced.

In the quote, Harris supposedly promises that if Trump is defeated in 2020, Trump supporters will be targeted by the federal government: “Once Trump’s gone and we have regained our rightful place in the White House, look out if you supported him and endorsed his actions, because we’ll be coming for you next. You will feel the vengeance of a nation.”

The quote was shared again on social media this week. One post on X containing an image of the quote was shared more than 22,000 times as of Monday afternoon.

The remarks didn’t come from Harris , but from a satirical article published online in August 2019. Shortly after, Trump supporters like musician Ted Nugent reposted the comments without noting they were fake.

CLAIM: A video shows Harris saying in a speech: “Today is today. And yesterday was today yesterday. Tomorrow will be today tomorrow. So live today, so the future today will be as the past today as it is tomorrow.”

THE FACTS: Harris never said this. Footage from a 2023 rally on reproductive rights at Howard University, her alma mater, was altered to make it seem as though she did.

In the days after Harris headlined the Washington rally, Republicans mocked a real clip of her speech, with one critic dubbing her remarks a “word salad,” the AP reported at the time .

Harris says in the clip: “So I think it’s very important — as you have heard from so many incredible leaders — for us, at every moment in time, and certainly this one, to see the moment in time in which we exist and are present, and to be able to contextualize it, to understand where we exist in the history and in the moment as it relates not only to the past, but the future.”

NARAL Pro-Choice America, an abortion rights nonprofit whose president also spoke at the rally, livestreamed the original footage. It shows Harris making the “moment in time” remark, but not the “today is today” comment.

The White House’s transcript of Harris’ remarks also does not include the statement from the altered video. Harris’ appearance at the event came the same day that Biden announced their reelection bid .

Find AP Fact Checks here: https://apnews.com/APFactCheck .

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Need some advice, MD/PhD program or PhD during residency?

I want to do a PhD but I don't know when I should do it.

Im a second year Canadian med student and our school offers an MD/PhD program where you do a PhD between preclinical and clerkship and then will graduate with a MD and a PhD when you're done (and have a PhD for residency applications).

Or I have heard of people doing a PhD in their residency (they are given time to do this and paid as a resident). However, I have never actually talked to someone who has/is doing it.

So if you have experience with or know someone who has done either I would love to hear what you have to say and if you think one is better than the other, why you think that.

We also have a combined MD/MBA program where you get the MBA in between preclinical and clerkship, but this only takes a year. My idea currently is to do the MBA and then in residency do the PhD, however I was talking with my PI this morning and now I'm honestly not sure how to go about this whole PhD thing.

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